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Coltrane cycles

 
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Angelic Layer



Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Posts: 4
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Coltrane cycles Reply with quote

On the April issue of Guitar Player magazine which features an interview of Derek Trucks, on pg 86 Derek mentioned he uses a Coltrane cycle of stacking intervals that keep going more and more outside until everything rounds out again.
He seemed to get this from Jimmy Herring, does anyone knows of what he is mentioning?

Regards
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A.J.K.



Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 35
Location: Kalamazoo, MI

PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think i know what he means because i've heard it in all 3 of their playing. they'll sort of repeat a run, usually an ascending phrase, but often raise it by a half step at some point, and then adding in extra notes outside the scale to take it more "out" before resolving. not sure if that helps. Laughing
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another fishin' musician



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Check the current issue of Guitar Player. Jimmy discusses exactly this.
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guhster813



Joined: 12 Jun 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:14 pm    Post subject: Cycle of 4th's Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure you're talking about the cycle of 4th's. Jimmy does this thing he got from coltrane where he plays just intervals of 4th's until he pops back in to key.
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another fishin' musician



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not 4ths, but definitely minor 3rds... 4ths wouldn't get you back to the starting key.
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gsbe



Joined: 30 Oct 2004
Posts: 65
Location: Lexington, VA

PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this Coltrane reference could be to one or both of these ideas:
  1. Coltrane takes a core group of notes (classical theory would prob want us to call this a motif) that he then modifies ad infinitum...transposing, adding flourishes, superimposing a fast arpeggio over one note of the original, playing it backwards, etc. The idea of theme and variations has been practiced for centuries but took a new, advanced form with Coltrane that poured out of him in real-time as "sheets of sound". I'd consider his solo on "One Up, One Down" to be one of the most followable examples of this improvisational technique. Coltrane soon became so adept at this technique of improvising that it becomes difficult (for me, at least) to recognize these connections in his later solos.

  2. Coltrane changes: each new key is a major third away from the preceding key, whether moving up or down. When you move around by major thirds (B-G-Eb-B), the octave is divided into three equal parts. Although Coltrane was the first jazz musician to use this concept extensively, he may have gotten the idea from the changes on the bridge of "Have You Met Ms. Jones" which uses the same movement of tonal centers by major thirds. Study the changes to Coltrane classics "Giant Steps", "Countdown" and "Central Park West" to hear these beautiful harmonies in action. Here's a simplification of what's happening:

    The first 4 bars of "Tune-Up" are a iim7 - V7 - Imaj7 in D major. In his reharmonization, Coltrane leaves unchanged the first chord, Em7 - the ii chord in D major. Then he moves the tonal center down a major third from D in the first bar to a Bbmaj chord in the second bar, down another major third to a Gbmaj chord in the third bar, and down another major third to a Dmaj chord in the fourth bar. Each "new" I chord - Bb, Gb and D - is preceded by its V chord, and the result is the changes to the first four bars of "Countdown"
    Code:
      |  E-7  F7  |  Bbmaj  Db7  | Gbmaj  A7  |   Dmaj   |
Please note that much of my Coltrane changes explanation comes from Mark Levine's fantastic "Jazz Piano" book...highly recommended to anyone interested in diving headfirst into jazz theory. The best book about Coltrane that I know of is Lewis Porter's "John Coltrane: His Life and Music" from University of Michigan Press. Finally, you should do everything in your power to get a complete copy of the Coltrane audio-biography called "Tell Me How Long Trane's Been Gone".

The comparison of Herring and Coltrane is important and I think that the first track, "Scapegoat Blues", on Herring's new solo album Lifeboat helps to show why. The "sheets of sound" that Ira Gitler used to describe Coltrane is equally useful for Herring's thorough control of the diminished sound. I've never heard another guitar player so thoroughly envelope the listener in a harmonic structure. Similar to Coltrane's sheets of sound, Herring uses use furiously paced arpeggiation to simulate an all-diminished world and "Scapegoat Blues" is the perfect vehicle for Herring to push with. I've been waiting almost 2 decades to hear him rip over 32+ bars of diminished chords. Smile

Side note: advice to any bass player that works with Jimmy Herring. Learn how to support his soloing in the diminished scale. Oteil learned early on with ARU how to do this and it makes the guy go nuts.

In case you haven't noticed by now, I'm really into this idea of a Coltrane/Herring comparison when it comes to their improvisational style. It's something I've been thinking about for years so I'm thrilled that other people are talking about it. Now I'll shut up for a few more years. Ha!
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another fishin' musician



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 8
Location: Raleigh, NC

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work gsbe. What's interesting is that JH uses motifs a minor third apart, while JC's classic 'changes' are a major third apart.

Similar effect, but the octave is broken up a little differently, and you always arrive where you started in either case. Minor thirds evoke a diminished sound, while major thirds seen to have an augmented sound.

I hear Scofield (& others) using the minor thirds 'trick' a lot.

Rock on...
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gillvanderlip



Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i don't claim to know all about the diminsh scale or half step whole step ideas but fourths are in there and its a cool sound in b flat i feel the use of B to E then D to G and so forth is fun to use in spots on solos. my favorite is natural 7 ths ideas

in b flat again use B to BFLAT G to DFLAT F to E A FLAT to G and so forth


hope this adds to the discussion
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gillvanderlip



Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my mistake in the naturals sevenths that D to D flat and not G

G to D flat would be a flat five and still work in a wierd way
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