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Chord substitution questions (The Art of Rhythm Blues)
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jconstant
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject: Chord substitution questions (The Art of Rhythm Blues) Reply with quote

On Robben's new DVD he goes through the tune Oasis. And Example 15 shows how he subs an Ebmaj7 for the Cm7.

It sounds cool and works because the two chords have Bb, Eb and G in common. But why say it as a chord sub rather than just calling it a Cmin9 with no root in the voicing? It makes it a little harder to think of it that way, but maybe that's just me.

Any thoughts on this?
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Last edited by jconstant on Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:26 pm; edited 3 times in total
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JackD
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chord subs get used a lot. C minor is just the relative minor to E flat major--it's just the way us crazy guitar players think of stuff!
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frank0936
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:13 am    Post subject: Chord subs Reply with quote

Robben has talked about chord substitution before and said it was something he just didn't get. Then, one day he said he just got it. I'm still waiting for that day!
Frank
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Bluelobster
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Re: Chord subs Reply with quote

frank0936 wrote:
Robben has talked about chord substitution before and said it was something he just didn't get. Then, one day he said he just got it. I'm still waiting for that day!
Frank


Me too !!! then my buddy who told me about Robben Ford in the eighties , coz' he was in GIT and Mr FORD was an instructor , that he remembers this special day when he got it all in his mind.
It was on vine street crossing hollywood blvrd. Just in front of a pedestrians walk. i know this coz' while visiting him in 86 he showed " that place " where everything felt in places. For me years later while in GIT too the only real great magical revelation was not music, i'm still working on this alas, but it was real gratifiantish. I dreamed in english. How cool ................ Razz
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AlChuck
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if you called it C9 that wouldn't be right, C9 has an E, not an Eb. You must have meant Cmin9. Wink

As far as chord sub or extension goes, it's really two ways of looking at the same thing. It's an effective "substitute" because it's really the same basic chord with the root dropped and the 9th adding a little flavor. The Ebmaj7 chord substitutes for the Cm7 because it's really another form of Cm7, as you pointed out. But it's arguably easier to think of and use the substitution point of view - plugging in another basic chord form following certain rules (here, the fact that the relative major 7th chord of a minor 7th chord works in its place) rather than think of how to grab a Cm9 with the third in the bass and no root) -- especially for guitar players who tend to think in chord forms rather than sets of notes.
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Millibobs
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would be cool to have a matrix or table of such chord substitutions to quickly pull down relevant alternative chords from. Anyone seen such a thing?
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jconstant
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlChuck wrote:
Well, if you called it C9 that wouldn't be right, C9 has an E, not an Eb. You must have meant Cmin9. Wink

As far as chord sub or extension goes, it's really two ways of looking at the same thing. It's an effective "substitute" because it's really the same basic chord with the root dropped and the 9th adding a little flavor. The Ebmaj7 chord substitutes for the Cm7 because it's really another form of Cm7, as you pointed out. But it's arguably easier to think of and use the substitution point of view - plugging in another basic chord form following certain rules (here, the fact that the relative major 7th chord of a minor 7th chord works in its place) rather than think of how to grab a Cm9 with the third in the bass and no root) -- especially for guitar players who tend to think in chord forms rather than sets of notes.


You're right Al. My mistake (now corrected) - thanks for pointing it out.

And thanks for your thoughts on this. I think your explanation makes a lot of sense. I'm really stuck in a mindset in which if the song is in Cmin, I want to relate EVERYthing directly to that Cmin and not think in terms of the relative minor key.

Thanks for another way of looking at it.
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pedro
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thoroughly recommend Eddie Arkin's Creative Chord Sub book - Its one of the best I've come across. I just got a copy at Xmas and it explains the whole thing really well

Cheers
Pete
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pedro
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and just to build on this ...

1) he covers the functions of each chord derived from each scale degree in the major, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales.
2) He covers the usual subs based on common tones between these chords....

e.g
1) in a major chord scale the ii chord and the iv chord can sub for each other
2) the V and the vii chords can sub
3) the iii and vi can sub ( and sub for the I chord )

he then does a similar thing for the minor scales.
Great stuff, easy to apply, and pretty easy to understand

After that he goes into chord extensions and chromatic alterations quite a bit - a really good overall view of substitutions, and loads of ideas to spice up your progressions.

Also there is a really great section on Blues subs.

BTW, check out Barry Greene on his site or at Youtube for some great materials on blues subs and playing in general - I think a lot of you here would enjoy it. I know I did.

cheers
Pete
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nineacres
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently came across this site: http://www.oreshko.co.uk/lessons.htm It's the most concise, easy-to-understand explanation I personally have read - so far Cool
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jconstant
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm playing around with this some more and I'm trying to understand why an F7 fits in here. Robben is saying if you play this voicing of Ebmaj7 over the Cm:

X6576X

and then just move your first and fourth fingers so that you're playing:

X6756X

then you've got yourself a dominant 7th (F7). Basically he's just playing a little groove using Ebmaj7 and F7 over the Cm.

But over a Cm shouldn't it be Fm7 chord in order to fit?
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Bluelobster
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:22 am    Post subject: Bb Maj Reply with quote

JC try Thinking in Bb Major , therefore Eb = IV , V= F7,
Cm being Dorian not Aeolian.
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maxima
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: git Reply with quote

Bluelobster,
if you dont mind me asking...what year did you go to GIT??


maxima
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jconstant
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Bb Maj Reply with quote

Bluelobster wrote:
JC try Thinking in Bb Major , therefore Eb = IV , V= F7,
Cm being Dorian not Aeolian.


Thanks, Blob. But now I'm going to show my lack of modal knowledge. I get what you're saying - if I look at the Cm as Dorian, the F7 makes sense. But that kind of feels like I'm thinking of it as Dorian just to make the theory work. I'm sure that's not the reason though.

So I guess my question is, what is the point of thinking of it as Dorian other than making the theory work?
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Bluelobster
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:23 am    Post subject: Re: Bb Maj Reply with quote

jconstant wrote:
.....

So I guess my question is, what is the point of thinking of it as Dorian other than making the theory work?


JeanConstant , my knowledge is low profile , i don't practice at all these times. But i do recall some hints from G.I.T :

-first know the rules , then break them.

-Try to harmonize Cm Melodic or Harmonic (here i am lost , have to take pen & paper) you 'll find
Cm Maj7(Ichord) EbMaj#5 (IIIchord) then F...???...along with Harmonic or melodic ibet this F is dominant......................
Now if you look from this point of view it doesn't matter if you use Dorian over C rather than Melodic minor while improvising , For ME Dorian is just Melodic Minor b7 (but that's my own brain kitchen).

Hope i'm not ridiculous on this one , but hey i've got a big fever ....
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Last edited by Bluelobster on Tue Mar 11, 2008 12:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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