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Revelation: playing HW diminished over B7

 
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tboulette
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:18 pm    Post subject: Revelation: playing HW diminished over B7 Reply with quote

This is something that has puzzled me, theory-wise, for a bit. (To my ear, which of course is the most important, it makes perfect sense, but I like to have an intellectual as well as experiential understanding of what I'm doing.)

On Blues and Beyond, Robben mentions playing the B half-whole diminished scale over the B7 in bar 4 of the tune. I've always understood that HW dim works over functioning dominant chords; i.e., those that resolve down a 5th. That's not what's happening here, though, so I don't get why it works.

To refresh y'all's memory, the first 8 bars go like this:

| G | | C F/C C B7sus | B7 | F/C C G/D | C/D | G | F C/G G |

Can anybody explain?

The best guess I have is that C following the B7 functions as a tritone sub for F# -- which would mean this is a basically B7 - F# V7 - I motion. But, that seems pretty far out for a tune that's really not far away from G all through this passage. Any other ideas?
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AlChuck
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What's the next chord? The IV?
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jconstant
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that although the diminished scale works well over a functioning dominant chord it also sounds good over a static dominant chord which is what you've got in this case. Maybe just a simple as that, no?
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tboulette
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You may very well be right.
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Sampo
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if this is completely valid here but I think it can be seen as the other way diminished chord can approach given chord, that is to itself. There are countless examples in jazz standards of this, like Cdim goes to Cmaj or better yet C6. It's really nice resolution: C and A stays put and Eb and Gb both go half step up to E and G, respectively. In this application the scale should be whole/half. BTW, original changes of Stella By Starlight first phrase is Gdim to G major.

For example, Corcovado goes to IV chord via ivdim. In C progression is D9/A -> Abdim -> Gm7 -> C7 -> Fdim -> Fmaj7. It gets interesting when Fdim is frequently played as E/F. That chord comes from same pitch collection as E7b9. And if you transpose that to G it is B7b9 to C.

I hope this makes sense!
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tboulette
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. I've always thought the Corcovado change was Fmaj7#11 - Fmaj7, although the way I voice it on guitar I think it may amount to the same thing as Fdim with an added E. Will have to go back and check it out.
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Sampo
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tboulette wrote:
Interesting. I've always thought the Corcovado change was Fmaj7#11 - Fmaj7, although the way I voice it on guitar I think it may amount to the same thing as Fdim with an added E. Will have to go back and check it out.


Fdim(maj7) to F6 (or E/F to F6) is what I usually do. I think I learned it from Ted Greene lesson tapes. BTW, I only found Corcovado in Real Book 1 and Fdim was there.

Speaking of Ted Greene, I have to check Chord Chemistry today, IRC there are "rules" how one can approach chords and I think dominant chord from one step below is one option. Which would be most straight forward option here.
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Sampo
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding III7 to IV change; I was reading "The Harmony Of Bill Evans" by Jack Reilly this morning. In first chapter he analyses "Peri's Scope" in C which has E7 in bars 7 and 8 and Fmaj7 in bar 9. Per transcription Evans plays E13 to E7#5 to E7b5 to Fmaj7, so it is quite similar to playing altered dominant for B7 to C.

Reilly explains it:
'The E7 at measure 8 resolves to an Fmaj7 at measure 9. This E7 is borrowed from the scale of A minor, relative minor of C major, and it resolves deceptively, i.e. V to VI or up a a half step "as if" it were in the key of A minor'.

I'm not sure if that does make any more sense than other explanations, but if Bill Evans played III7 to IV altered, it sure is valid way to do it!!
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tboulette
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sampo wrote:
... if Bill Evans played III7 to IV altered, it sure is valid way to do it!!


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