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What kind of approach does scott use for fusion ballads

 
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ELDENI



Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Tampa

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 2:35 pm    Post subject: What kind of approach does scott use for fusion ballads Reply with quote

I've noticed that Scott uses a different approach than just thinking in two keys or improvising by thinking in modes, I mean, he uses his ear but what's his stand point?, pieces like The neccessary blonde, or Sub Aqua, have this beautiful meoldies, and I know he uses what he calls Melodic Improvisation, but I don't get it for those two pieces, It sounds like if he where using aug5 arpeggios, I imagine because of the 87623874 dominant chords that we see in those charts, but still, there are some parts in which he's doing something else, could someone please jump in?
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Scott Jones



Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 9
Location: St. Louis, MO USA

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2004 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well,

My analysis of Scott's playing, in general, goes something like this:

MELODIC MINOR

For starters: as much as you can convert things to melodic minor...do so....

Here are some tips and ways of looking at it:

D Dorian = D mel min

>> Also think of it this way:

Dorian = mel min from root of chord:
(D = D)

G7 = D mel min (also known as G Lydian Dominant)

>> Also think of it this way:

Dominant 7 = mel min from 5th of chord:
(G = D)

C#7#5b9 = D mel min (also known as C# Superlocrian)

>> This is a tritone substitution of G7

>> Also think of it this way:

Dom 7 alt (#5, b9, or #9) = mel min from half step above root of chord:
(C# = D)

Cmaj7 (or maj9) = A mel min

>> This will produce, or imply a Maj7#5 harmony

>> Also think of it this way:

Maj7 (maj9) = mel min from the 6th of the chord:
(C = A)

OTHER MEL MIN TIPS:

For dominant chords:

Use mel min from the 4th of the chord:

G7 = C mel minor

For maj7 chords:

Use mel min from the 4th of the chord:

Cmaj7 = F mel minor

*********

Here's the full run down on the MEL MIN modes though....

DERIVATIVE THINKING
Modes derived from Melodic Minor:

From C:

C mel min:
C D Eb F G A B

D dorian b2:
D Eb F G A B C

Eb Lydian Augmented:
Eb F G A B C D

F Lydian dominant:
F G A B C D Eb

G mIxolydian b6:
G A B C D Eb F

A Locrian #2:
A B C D Eb F G

B Diminished-whole-tone (Superlocrian):
B C D Eb F G A

PARALLEL THINKING

CHORD 7: mel min, from b3
CHORD 7: dor b2, from 4
CHORD 7: lyd aug, from b5
CHORD 7: lyd dom, from b6
CHORD 7: mix b6, from b7
CHORD 7: loc#2, from root
CHORD 7: superloc, from 2

CHORD 7 (alt): mel min, from b2
CHORD 7 (alt): dor b2, from #2
CHORD 7 (alt): lyd aug, from 3
CHORD 7 (alt): lyd dom, from #4
CHORD 7 (alt): mix b6, from #5
CHORD 7 (alt): loc#2, from b7
CHORD 7 (alt): superloc, from root

CHORD min/maj7: mel min, from root
CHORD min/maj7: dor b2, from 2
CHORD min/maj7: lyd aug, from b3
CHORD min/maj7: lyd dom, from 4
CHORD min/maj7: mix b6, from 5
CHORD min/maj7: loc#2, from 6
CHORD min/maj7: superloc, from 7

CHORD 7#4: mel min, from 5
CHORD 7#4: dor b2, from 6
CHORD 7#4: lyd aug, from b7
CHORD 7#4: lyd dom, from root
CHORD 7#4: mix b6, from 2
CHORD 7#4: loc#2, from 3
CHORD 7#4: superloc, from #4

CHORD maj7#5: mel min, from 6
CHORD maj7#5: dor b2, from 7
CHORD maj7#5: lyd aug, from root
CHORD maj7#5: lyd dom, from 2
CHORD maj7#5: mix b6, from 3
CHORD maj7#5: loc#2, from #4
CHORD maj7#5: superloc, from #5

For example:
on C7, play Eb mel min
on C7(alt), play Db mel min
on Cmin/maj7, play C mel min
on C7#4, play G mel min
CMaj7#5, play A mel min

SYMMETRICAL SCALES:

Use half whole diminished scales for dominant chords:

G7 = G Ab Bb B Db D E F G

...and whole half dim scales for minor chords:

Cmin = C D Eb F F# G# A B C

Tips for whole tone scales:

Use them with Dominant 7 chords, from the root of the chord
(implying a #4, #5):

G7 = G whole tone G A B C# D# F

And over minor chords (within Dorian), from the 5th of the chord

D min7 = A whole tone A B C# D# F G

SEEK OUT THE TRIADS:

Find "like triads" within the framework of ANY of the above and apply them liberally...

...for example:

Major Triads within the diminished context:

G half-whole dim = G B D --- Bb D F --- Db F Ab --- E G# B

Minor Triads within the diminished context:

G half-whole dim = G Bb D --- Bb Db F --- Db E Ab --- E G B

Of course there's tritone substitution, blues, bop, jeez.....I'd be here for days......

But this can give you an idea.......

Peace,

Scott
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ELDENI



Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Tampa

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you for your time scott, I have a question, do you think like that, I mean melodic minor, in the moment of the impro?, or you rehearse first? because what if the piece changes keys a lot? Shocked
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Tim Goynes



Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 19
Location: Denton, TX

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eldeni, I guess it really just comes from practice. Basically if I want to add a new sound to my bag, I just think of a chord type, and then I think about a new method for playing over that chord, and I isolate that and work on it until it starts to feel natural. Then, I try to incorporate it into a tune--usually a simple tune first, like All the Things You Are or Body and Soul, something like that.

I also try to look for the simplest possible method to achieve the sound I want, because when I'm playing, I have a hard time associating a chord with some exotic Indian scale or what have you...even though that may sound amazing, my brain can't do it. For me, melodic minor is great, because it's a scale that I know well and therefore it's easy for me to associate it with X chord. For example, here's something that John Stowell showed me with melodic minor on dominant chords, and it's really easy to grasp (Scott probably listed a few of these already). I'll present it this way--the starting place for the melodic minor scale, then the tensions it gives you.

Over a dominant chord:

Mel. Minor from b2: b5, #5, b9, #9
Mel. Minor from b7: b9, #9
Mel. Minor from 5: #11
Mel. Minor from 4: #5 (also has natural 5)

So there's 4 melodic minor scales you can use over a dominant chord. Now also remember that over any major or minor chord, you can always imply the V7 to get some harmonic motion going, and that means that those 4 melodic minors can be used. For example, on an Emaj7 chord, if you imply B7, you can use C, A, F#, and E melodic minor.

All of those suggestions that Scott put down are also great.

Here's another cool little thing for dominant chords that's remarkably simple once you look at it--I watched a video documentary on Miles Davis, and Chick Corea told about Miles telling him the sound he wanted on a certain tune. Miles played him 3 major triads--E, Ab, and C. Then he took those notes and played it as a scale:

E G Ab B C Eb

That in itself sounds pretty cool, but watch this. There's actually two (well, six) augmented triads in that scale...use a little enharmonic spelling and you'll see them--there's Eb...Eb G B...and E...E Ab(G#) C(B#).

So what that boils down to is, if you have a dominant chord, say E7...you can use E and Eb augmented triads to play on it--one from the root and one down a half-step.

Another cool thing which you may or may not use so much is pentatonics, believe it or not. Scofield and Henderson are the guys I got this from. Check this out...(when I say pentatonics here, I, like Henderson, am referring to minor pentatonics)...

Over maj7 chord:
pentatonic from 3, 6, 7...pentatonic from 7 on a major chord is a Lydian sound

Over m7 chord:
pentatonic from root, 2, 5

Over dom7 chord:
pentatonic from 6

Over dom7alt chord:
pentatonic from b7, b3

The dom7alt ones are particularly interesting. Check this out--in the context of a ii-Valt-I, watch what can happen. We'll do this in C.

Dm7 -- use pentatonic from 2 (E pentatonic)
G7alt -- use pentatonic from b7 (F)
Cmaj7 -- use pentatonic from 3 (E)

OR

Dm7 -- use pentatonic from 5 (A)
G7alt -- use pentatonic from b3 (Bb)
Cmaj7 -- use pentatonic from 7 (B) or 6 (A)

What it all amounts to is, all you do is move up a half-step on the dominant chord! It's so simple and yet sounds so cool!

As for thinking this up on the spot, it kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier. I practice a certain sound until it feels natural to me, and then when I'm playing over a certain tune and I see a certain chord and I want to pull that sound out, I don't have to think about it. But at the same time, if you stopped me in the middle of a solo, I could still tell you what I was thinking of--I'm AWARE of what I'm doing, but I don't have to consciously think about it to make it happen--I just want a certain sound, and I know how to get it, so I just do it. That's probably the worst explanation ever, but I tried. Confused

To sum it up though--what I try to do is find simple things that work well, really get acquainted with those sounds, and then gradually incorporate them until they feel natural. THEN the ear takes over.

Hope this helps,
Tim G.
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fusion58



Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Bangkok

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good info, Tim.

BTW, glad to hear someone mention John Stowell.

I studied with John from about '89 to '94.

John is one of those rare guys who is both an amazing player and a fantastic teacher.

Cool

BTW, for the gentleman who inquired about Scott's improv concepts, Scott's instructional video "Jazz Fusion Improvisation" is a great primer, IMHO.
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ELDENI



Joined: 17 May 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Tampa

PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2004 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Goynes wrote:
Eldeni, I guess it really just comes from practice. Basically if I want to add a new sound to my bag, I just think of a chord type, and then I think about a new method for playing over that chord, and I isolate that and work on it until it starts to feel natural. Then, I try to incorporate it into a tune--usually a simple tune first, like All the Things You Are or Body and Soul, something like that.

I also try to look for the simplest possible method to achieve the sound I want, because when I'm playing, I have a hard time associating a chord with some exotic Indian scale or what have you...even though that may sound amazing, my brain can't do it. For me, melodic minor is great, because it's a scale that I know well and therefore it's easy for me to associate it with X chord. For example, here's something that John Stowell showed me with melodic minor on dominant chords, and it's really easy to grasp (Scott probably listed a few of these already). I'll present it this way--the starting place for the melodic minor scale, then the tensions it gives you.

Over a dominant chord:

Mel. Minor from b2: b5, #5, b9, #9
Mel. Minor from b7: b9, #9
Mel. Minor from 5: #11
Mel. Minor from 4: #5 (also has natural 5)

So there's 4 melodic minor scales you can use over a dominant chord. Now also remember that over any major or minor chord, you can always imply the V7 to get some harmonic motion going, and that means that those 4 melodic minors can be used. For example, on an Emaj7 chord, if you imply B7, you can use C, A, F#, and E melodic minor.

All of those suggestions that Scott put down are also great.

Here's another cool little thing for dominant chords that's remarkably simple once you look at it--I watched a video documentary on Miles Davis, and Chick Corea told about Miles telling him the sound he wanted on a certain tune. Miles played him 3 major triads--E, Ab, and C. Then he took those notes and played it as a scale:

E G Ab B C Eb

That in itself sounds pretty cool, but watch this. There's actually two (well, six) augmented triads in that scale...use a little enharmonic spelling and you'll see them--there's Eb...Eb G B...and E...E Ab(G#) C(B#).

So what that boils down to is, if you have a dominant chord, say E7...you can use E and Eb augmented triads to play on it--one from the root and one down a half-step.

Another cool thing which you may or may not use so much is pentatonics, believe it or not. Scofield and Henderson are the guys I got this from. Check this out...(when I say pentatonics here, I, like Henderson, am referring to minor pentatonics)...

Over maj7 chord:
pentatonic from 3, 6, 7...pentatonic from 7 on a major chord is a Lydian sound

Over m7 chord:
pentatonic from root, 2, 5

Over dom7 chord:
pentatonic from 6

Over dom7alt chord:
pentatonic from b7, b3

The dom7alt ones are particularly interesting. Check this out--in the context of a ii-Valt-I, watch what can happen. We'll do this in C.

Dm7 -- use pentatonic from 2 (E pentatonic)
G7alt -- use pentatonic from b7 (F)
Cmaj7 -- use pentatonic from 3 (E)

OR

Dm7 -- use pentatonic from 5 (A)
G7alt -- use pentatonic from b3 (Bb)
Cmaj7 -- use pentatonic from 7 (B) or 6 (A)

What it all amounts to is, all you do is move up a half-step on the dominant chord! It's so simple and yet sounds so cool!

As for thinking this up on the spot, it kinda goes back to what I was saying earlier. I practice a certain sound until it feels natural to me, and then when I'm playing over a certain tune and I see a certain chord and I want to pull that sound out, I don't have to think about it. But at the same time, if you stopped me in the middle of a solo, I could still tell you what I was thinking of--I'm AWARE of what I'm doing, but I don't have to consciously think about it to make it happen--I just want a certain sound, and I know how to get it, so I just do it. That's probably the worst explanation ever, but I tried. Confused

To sum it up though--what I try to do is find simple things that work well, really get acquainted with those sounds, and then gradually incorporate them until they feel natural. THEN the ear takes over.

Hope this helps,
Tim G.


thanx tim, I do it by practicing, I just want to make sure I'm on the right track with it, One thing that I do for bebop, is to recognize intervals and let my ear take care of the rest, but first I really "think" what notes I want to reach for, and develop, so I know what notes I should play and what notes I shouldn't play, and by that time, If I play an outside note, I build some line on it, or arpeggio like the Aug5th arpeggio, until I get to a point in the scale or arpeggio in which my separation of steps is whole, half, whole and I add a Diminished scale and right away a chromatic Diminished scale, which I think scofield uses a lot, a diminished outside of the key and a diminished inside the key by thinking in the 2nd degree of the minor scale or the 7th degree. Well the second would be half diminished but you got my point.

For dominants, have you tried the trintone's dominant?, I mean it's just a secondary dominant, but thinking in this way, the resolution has more tension and it's more easy (at least for me) to visualize and analize the notes while my ear is trying to hear the tritone. Sometimes the Anti-relative dominant which is the 5th of the minor harminoc scale, works great for creating tension with the Dominant's tritone, and probably you know all of this but I'm just expressing thoughts and sharing.

Nice point of view, and scott too. Cool
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