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Interesting Find On Pentatonic Scale

 
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:21 am    Post subject: Interesting Find On Pentatonic Scale Reply with quote

So, I was just noodling on the guitar, and I noticed something you guys probably already know about. But, I'll share it.

Thinking about the "As Above/So Below" comments I've read from SK, I took the Am Pentatonic Scale, and tried to look at it's inverse. At least that's what I think you'd call it.

Am Pent. = A C D E G A

Also seen as m3 2 2 m3 2

Starting again on A, and heading lower;

m3 2 2 m3 2

This yields (Descending);

A F# E D B A

These Notes also make up Bm Pent.

Combining these 2 sets of Notes, and collapsing them into 1 Octave with a Literal Tonal Center of A, you get this:

A B C D E F# G A

A Dorian. At least, the same Notes.

Not sure of the signifigance of this information. But, it does seem like something I can exploit. Now, I just have to let it soak in for awhile. Maybe I can find a use for it.

So, any of you guys already see this relationship? What did/do you think about it? All comments are fair game.
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Frankenstrat



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't use it as often as I should, because I sort of forget about it. But, Jimmy Herring uses this quite a bit. I think it was a guit mag interview from a few years ago. The example he gave was just in a different key. Basically, just playing F#m pentatonic over Em. Same thang. It is a cool sounding device. You can actually do this in a couple of other places too. On the first Scott Henderson instructional video he goes into a lot of detail about playing the box over different areas, and getting some really interesting things. I need to hunt a copy of this DVD down, as it has TONS of great stuff to get the old brain...even more confused than it already was, LOL!!!! I know some company reissued these a couple of years ago on DVD.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the DVD version has both of Scott's old VHS releases on one DVD. It's really good.
And, it's available from Amazon, etc.

Yeah, I often treat Pentatonics like you've mentioned JH does. I have read a couple of his Columns, etc.

What I thought was interesting with this "discovery" (New for me, anyways!), was the way I arrived there. And the different "mind-set" it can generate for me.

I have often used the different Diatonic Pentatonics. And others. I find that by using these physical structures (like the 5th. Fret, Am Pentatonic Box) in different relationships, I get a nice "limiting" effect.
By this, I mean that since there are specific Pitches available within the Box, may force me to approach things differently than I would have, using the more "logical" or obvious Notes.
I think of this as "Shifting Gears".

So by approaching these 2 Pentatonics from the perspective of this reversing of the Intervallic Structure, (Reciprocal? Is this the proper term?), I see the relationships between them in a whole different way.
Shifting Gears, yet again.

I do find it interesting that this reversal has led me back in an almost circular path, to something that appears at first glance to be so familiar.

Yet, also not so familiar.

Now, as to where this will lead me? Question

I don't know.
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kimock



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:51 am    Post subject: Re: Interesting Find On Pentatonic Scale Reply with quote

Swain wrote:

So, any of you guys already see this relationship? What did/do you think about it? All comments are fair game.


As far as pentatonic scales go, I tend to shy away from explanations that any sound is the result of the combination of two different scales. It confuses the blues stuff for a lot of people. In the case of the example given, the significance for me is in the tonality of the first four notes.
From A down to F# E C# is clearly Major, A up to C D E is clearly minor.
So what?
If this was in a standard blues context, it offers a radically different explanation from the usual pentatonic scales a minor third apart for the one and four chords, but because they're pentatonic scales there are other implications.
The "A minor pent" could be an F lydian color for example, and what may have been previously viewed as scales a minor third apart might now be seen as tonalities a major third apart; A major and F major instead of F#minor and A minor, or 1/2 step apart as F# and F.

Anyway, there's obviously some symmetry here, and although that symmetry is being viewed as diatonic (cuz it is) doesn't mean that there aren't other useful less diatonic applications.
I guess the trick with this stuff is to "feel the function" to determine how you're going to use it. From the listeners perspective there isn't ever going to be that same sense of "combining two things" that we get as players.
The listener only hears the result.

As far as using the term "reciprocal" to describe what is going here, I wouldn't use it like that. This is more "reflection" or maybe "intervallic symmetry" for me.
I prefer to think of reciprocal as describing an interval that is the inversional counterpart of an overtonal interval.
E is the 5th partial of C. What is C the 5th partial of?
Ab. OK, E is the overtonal major third of C, and Ab is the reciprocal major third.
Like that. I just kind of leave it there (overtone series) and go with the symmetrical reflection (in the temperament) idea after that.
Whatever floats your boat tho, if it's consistent enough not to screw you up later, but that's difficult to second guess huh?

peace
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply. It's nice to read the thoughts of someone who is engaged in these things.

I posted this same thing on TGP and JS Guitar Forums. Basically, everyone went straight to the Diatonic stuff. And that is definately cool.
With something like a "Modal Jam" like Oye Como Va, it definately spells out the whole idea of Dorian type sounds.
In fact by limiting yourself to the Bm Pent. Notes, you can definately get a little different "Flavor" than with the Am Pent., or the full A Dorian Scales. So, it does immediately have that application, apart from "A Dorian".

One person did hit on some symmetrical concepts, as regards Dorian Scales. And there were a couple of interesting Posts, with various thoughts. But, I think I'm forming an idea that is slightly different. I will try to put it in more defined terms, soon.

Your response was very good for me, as it does help to clarify my understanding of "Reciprocal".
And I think I'm starting to understand the idea of "Sub-Dominant" and "Dominant" Functions, in regards to these Overtonal and Reciprocal Pitches.
Again, I will try to spell it out more clearly, soon.

Then, you guys can set me straight, and I'll start over! Embarassed Laughing

So, as I'm thinking of this new collection of Pitches a little differently, I'm going to refer to it as a "Reflective Pentatonic" for now. Just to help clarify (for myself) the more specific functions that this different approach may imply.

One thing I'm not sure of, is your mention of the C# Note. I do understand the idea of the Notes F# E C# spelling out an A Major Tonality.
But, I'm not sure where this Note fits as regards my OP. I'm sure it'll be obvious, when someone point it out. But for now, I'm still wondering........ Question

Now, over an "A Blues" type thing?

I see this as another avenue to explore.

Over the A7, we get:

Root (A)
6/13th. (F#)
5th. (E)
4/11(D)
2/9(B)

Pretty sweet, fairly comon "Blues Tones".

Over D7? Some cool stuff:

5th.(A)
M3rd.(F#)
2/9th.(E)
Root(D)
6/13th.(B)

Also very cool, "standard" Blues stuff.

Over E7:

4/11(A)
2/9(F#)
Root(E)
b7th.(D)
5th.(B)

Again, pretty much "right in the Blues Bag".

So, nothing too "out there". Nothing you couldn't find with standard Diatonic thinking.

Maybe I can find some more in there.............



One thing I would ask, is this;

Since Dorian was one of the primary "Modes" in the early years of Western Harmony(as I understand it), is this just another connection between the "averaging" of EDO and the "Naturally Occurring" Overtonal Pitches?
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Swain



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, would the reason Dorian plays such a prominent role in so many Improvisers Tool Kits, be tied to these "Connections"?
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Swain



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, why is the "Dorian Scale" so popular with Improvisers?

I am thinking that it may be because of the close relationships between Blues/Folk Music(s) and their Vocal traditions of using Naturally Occurring Overtonal Pitches, and the EDO Pitches of Western Harmony.

Working from the standpoint of there being a "Sub-Minor 3rd.", then it would make sense to me, that by using combinations of the 2nd. and b3rd. Notes, we can Approximate the "Hidden" Pitch that lies between the Frets (or Keys), which is this Sub-Minor 3rd.

Similarly, the 6th. used in conjunction with the b7th. would be a way to Approximate the Septimal 7th.

So, a "simple" Minor Pentatonic Frame, with these 2 "Additions" would possibly be an EDO way of Approximating these "Other" Pitches.

Now, the b3rd. to M3rd. "Moves" would be the basis for my thought process here.

Since these two EDO Pitches "surround" the Just 3rd.(s), we often use them to Approximate the Just Pitches there.

Way off? Question

Close? Confused

This is the part, where other Forumites could participate, instead of spectate.
What do you think, Guys/Gals?

Get off the Bench, and into the Game!

Laughing
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57tele



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the dorian is popular because about half of the rock repertoire is based on the "Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression" Wink
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Frankenstrat



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love your new avatar, Mikey!

You probably don't know this, but their cd, "God Hates Us All," is actually quite good!

Twisted Evil

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kimock



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swain wrote:
So, why is the "Dorian Scale" so popular with Improvisers?

I am thinking that it may be because of the close relationships between Blues/Folk Music(s) and their Vocal traditions of using Naturally Occurring Overtonal Pitches, and the EDO Pitches of Western Harmony.

Working from the standpoint of there being a "Sub-Minor 3rd.", then it would make sense to me, that by using combinations of the 2nd. and b3rd. Notes, we can Approximate the "Hidden" Pitch that lies between the Frets (or Keys), which is this Sub-Minor 3rd.

Similarly, the 6th. used in conjunction with the b7th. would be a way to Approximate the Septimal 7th.

So, a "simple" Minor Pentatonic Frame, with these 2 "Additions" would possibly be an EDO way of Approximating these "Other" Pitches.

Now, the b3rd. to M3rd. "Moves" would be the basis for my thought process here.

Since these two EDO Pitches "surround" the Just 3rd.(s), we often use them to Approximate the Just Pitches there.

Way off? :?:

Close? :?

This is the part, where other Forumites could participate, instead of spectate.
What do you think, Guys/Gals?

Get off the Bench, and into the Game! :eek:

:lol:


OK, you have to be a little careful with that line of reasoning.
You're always/only going to find those pitches that fit your definitions if you try to fit those pitches into your definitions.
It's the same rap a 12 tone guy might give me about microtonality, basically.
Know what I mean?

It's just another grid, and there's always good music and crap, on and off every grid.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

peace
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lalaland



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

Last edited by lalaland on Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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Swain



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kimock wrote:
Swain wrote:
So, why is the "Dorian Scale" so popular with Improvisers?

I am thinking that it may be because of the close relationships between Blues/Folk Music(s) and their Vocal traditions of using Naturally Occurring Overtonal Pitches, and the EDO Pitches of Western Harmony.

Working from the standpoint of there being a "Sub-Minor 3rd.", then it would make sense to me, that by using combinations of the 2nd. and b3rd. Notes, we can Approximate the "Hidden" Pitch that lies between the Frets (or Keys), which is this Sub-Minor 3rd.

Similarly, the 6th. used in conjunction with the b7th. would be a way to Approximate the Septimal 7th.

So, a "simple" Minor Pentatonic Frame, with these 2 "Additions" would possibly be an EDO way of Approximating these "Other" Pitches.

Now, the b3rd. to M3rd. "Moves" would be the basis for my thought process here.

Since these two EDO Pitches "surround" the Just 3rd.(s), we often use them to Approximate the Just Pitches there.

Way off? Question

Close? Confused

This is the part, where other Forumites could participate, instead of spectate.
What do you think, Guys/Gals?

Get off the Bench, and into the Game!

Laughing


OK, you have to be a little careful with that line of reasoning.
You're always/only going to find those pitches that fit your definitions if you try to fit those pitches into your definitions.
It's the same rap a 12 tone guy might give me about microtonality, basically.
Know what I mean?

It's just another grid, and there's always good music and crap, on and off every grid.

Anyway, keep up the good work.

peace




Yeah, I do think I get what you're saying. I guess it was just a mathematical coincidence. But, I still wonder about the way these pitches seem to "surround" the JI Pitches.

I mean, isn't "Dorian" a go-to thing for many Jazzers? And Blues guys seem to use the "added" 2/9 and 6/13 quite a lot. So, it seems like there is a correlation, whether intentional/conscious or not.
Could it be that "pull" of wanting to approximate the natural, vocal tones? The same one that makes me want to "tweak" those fretted notes?

If I am still too far off point here, please let me know. I don't want to keep running down a dead-end street!

Back to your point though.
I think I see what you're telling me here. But, I guess I still don't have a handle on how to define and describe it all in a clear and logical way.
Still working on it, though! Wink

The idea of "Reflective" vs. "Reciprocal" makes more sense, after your last couple of posts.
I will try to explain what I think you're saying on these, soon. I need to figure out how to word what I want to say/ask.

Thanks for staying engaged!
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Swain



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

57tele wrote:
I think the dorian is popular because about half of the rock repertoire is based on the "Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression" Wink


Ahh! Eureka!

Well, I gotta run. Still gotta finish cleaning up those Jazz Discharge Party Hats.
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Swain



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lalaland wrote:
Swain wrote:
Thanks for the reply. It's nice to read the thoughts of someone who is engaged in these things.


So, first you'd have to figure out if two pitches close to each other indicate/sum to a third pitch in between them. I've heard people say this before, but I've never worked it myself.

I will go back, and try to figure out the process for summing these pitches. But, I'm still not sure why this would be an explanation. Would it be just that these pitches would fit together better into the same Tonality, if they did indeed share this relationship? Is that part of the whole idea?



Quote:

So, nothing too "out there". Nothing you couldn't find with standard Diatonic thinking.

Maybe I can find some more in there.............


Maybe you could try to think of 'sounds' as a smaller collection of notes. Like, if there is a scale you like, there might be some little part of it that really captures that sound. I don't think that looking at a list of pitches with their respective scale steps (changing with chords) written on them is gonna help you get a feel for that, especially if its a big scale.
Indian classical music uses this idea. Different notes ascending/descending, skipping notes on the way up/down, not being able to just mix and match any order of pitches, etc.


This seems to jive with the ideas I've read here, on "Chord Replacement" vs. Chord Substitution.
Also, with the idea of Overtonal Series', and how they relate to the different Tonalities.

So, does this mean that a "Tonality" (using this word in a manner similar to "Key"), is like a River on Pitches that flow together? And that each Note has a kind of Tributary of it's own Overtones and Reciprocals? Treating each Chord, Harmony, or Note as a type of Center Point. or Focal Point?

This seems to have a similar type of compartmentalization as the "each Chord has a Scale" type of thinking, as a Jazz player might use. However, based off of a totally different system.

Is this what you mean?
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Swain



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Interesting Find On Pentatonic Scale Reply with quote

kimock wrote:
Swain wrote:

So, any of you guys already see this relationship? What did/do you think about it? All comments are fair game.


As far as pentatonic scales go, I tend to shy away from explanations that any sound is the result of the combination of two different scales. It confuses the blues stuff for a lot of people. In the case of the example given, the significance for me is in the tonality of the first four notes.
From A down to F# E C# is clearly Major, A up to C D E is clearly minor.
So what?
If this was in a standard blues context, it offers a radically different explanation from the usual pentatonic scales a minor third apart for the one and four chords, but because they're pentatonic scales there are other implications.
The "A minor pent" could be an F lydian color for example, and what may have been previously viewed as scales a minor third apart might now be seen as tonalities a major third apart; A major and F major instead of F#minor and A minor, or 1/2 step apart as F# and F.

Anyway, there's obviously some symmetry here, and although that symmetry is being viewed as diatonic (cuz it is) doesn't mean that there aren't other useful less diatonic applications.
I guess the trick with this stuff is to "feel the function" to determine how you're going to use it. From the listeners perspective there isn't ever going to be that same sense of "combining two things" that we get as players.
The listener only hears the result.

As far as using the term "reciprocal" to describe what is going here, I wouldn't use it like that. This is more "reflection" or maybe "intervallic symmetry" for me.
I prefer to think of reciprocal as describing an interval that is the inversional counterpart of an overtonal interval.
E is the 5th partial of C. What is C the 5th partial of?
Ab. OK, E is the overtonal major third of C, and Ab is the reciprocal major third.
Like that. I just kind of leave it there (overtone series) and go with the symmetrical reflection (in the temperament) idea after that.
Whatever floats your boat tho, if it's consistent enough not to screw you up later, but that's difficult to second guess huh?

peace




Just bumping this, as I "think" I might be ready to actually digest more of it soon.


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