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The kimock matrix
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: The kimock matrix Reply with quote

Prerequisite material:

_ \Eb/__ \Bb/ __ \F/___\C/___\G/__ \ D/__ \A /_\ E /_\ B /_\ F#/_\C#/_ \G#/_\D# /_\A#
Cb /_\ Gb /_\ Db /_\ Ab /_\ Eb /_\ Bb /_\ F /_\ C /_\ G /_\ D /_\ A /_\ E /_ \ B /_\ F#/_\C#
_ Ebb /_\Bbb /_\ Fb/_ \ Cb /_\ Gb /_\Db/_\_Ab/_ Eb/__ Bb/_\ F / _\C /__\G /_\ D /_\ A /_\E

"Here's a fun one for the more out blues based stuff...
In the key of A, freely harmonize
A major pentatonic and C-6 pentatonic.
So, A B C# E F# on one string maybe and
C D Eflat G A on another."

"All the chord/scale relationships are going to be static by definition, so if you want to hear any real motion you're going to need at least two "scales", whatever that means, for every "chord", whatever that means..

For example, the B minor pentatonic for the C Lydian sound is great, but for my own purposes that B minor/D major pentatonic doesn't get up and do the "sounds like music" thing for me until it's balanced by its reciprocal area F minor/A flat. It's all still just in C."

The above were taken from Steve's posts at a different forum. I was wondering if someone could elaborate on how all this works, what the matrix really stands for... the whole concept is just going way over my head. This stuff must be connected to the "reciprocal" ideas Steve was talking about in my previous post, "how to avoid noodling", but again i havent been able to apply it to my playing because i dont really see what hes getting at.

any thoughts?


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lalaland



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What forum was this originally posted on? I am curious.
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57tele



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 714
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lalaland wrote:
What forum was this originally posted on? I am curious.


Pretty sure that's from the gear page.
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/forumdisplay.php?f=30
I've been compiling a list of links/ ideas from what Steve has posted there. I would be happy to share, just send a PM.
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

57tele do you know anything about the matrix?
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brookflyman



Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Posts: 12
Location: ALABAMA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a hold of the same "Matrix" one afternoon talking with Steve before a show. I just nodded my head like i understood when he explained it to me but i think my brain exploded shortly after.
I know the middle row are the roots and 5ths up/down
the top row are the major 3rds (thirds up) "overtonal"
the bottom row are the minor 3rds (thirds down) "reciprocal"

he spoke a good bit about cents and how the "Thirds up" are 14 cents flat and the "Thirds down" are 14 cents sharp. That little tidbit helped me play my lap steel a little more in tune but as far as the "matrix" as a whole im a little lost.

This whole conversation started when i asked Steve what scales he liked. He basically said you cant think in scales, think in intervals. So ive been trying to think in terms of 3rds, 5ths, etc. So thats what ive been studying and it has helped me get away from just "playing scales" to understanding what they are, how they are, and where they lead, and where they will take me. Everything is everything depending on where you are on the fret board.

He also told me that once i get it it will make total sense. As of now, im still 100% in the dark.
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, as a chord/scale relationship guy myself, i would really like to expand my line of thinking (even if that involves "relearning" the fretboard).

I thought the matrix was all about note choice, didn't know it dealt with the whole "playing in tune" dilemma also, although i guess its all connected.
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, disregard my previous post, i just had a little bit of an epiphany. Apparently, everything Steve talked about in my previous thread, is connected to what im asking here. Now i still don't see how the conclusions are drawn, but it makes sense that the matrix is built from the circle of 5ths hence: "The other question, about the relationship between C and F minor, C and A minor etc. is a circle of 5ths question.

Just trace those shapes, "connect the dots" of those chord tones on the circle of 5ths, and see what you get."


The matrix is a guide used to produce a feeling of movement in static vamps based on inverse notes. Just playing a certain scale over a certain chord will inherently sound static, noodley, etc.

I guess what im asking now is, how do you use the matrix to determine the inverse of where you are.

"If C major is your basic "in" sound, F minor, as it's inverse, is your basic "out" sound. For the key of C."

Where on the matrix are C and F connected so that if C is major, F is minor etc. (this probably explains the above example also with the A major pentatonic and the C-6 reciprocal pentatonic.)
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57tele



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
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Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On3ironaut5 wrote:
O
I guess what im asking now is, how do you use the matrix to determine the inverse of where you are.



Look at the circle of fifths:



Draw lines connecting the tones of a C major triad--c, g, e, forms a triangle. Now 'flip' that triangle to the left-hand side of the circle so that it's an exact mirror image of the C triad triangle. What do you get?
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, just sort of clicked... check it out.

" So, if you're going from C up to G,

you have to go down from C to F "

Moving one to the right from C brings the inverse, the note to the left, into play.

"up to E,

down to A flat, etc. "

Moving up one and to the right (E) allows for down and to the left (Ab).

So now we can take out [C E G] and [F Ab C], all things C major triad are also F minor triad... awesome.
Playing F minor ideas over C major sounded tense and cool, however, it would have been a lot easier for my brain to just say, play in Ab over C, and then i would think ok we just brought [#5 , b7, b9, and #9] into play.

Then i would take that idea a step further and say, "playing from the #5 from the tonic sounds hip in any situation (or playing phrydgian from the tonic)
Over E play in C major
Over B play in G Major etc.

Does the above make any sense, if thats the case, why use something like that matrix to find the inverse of where you are, if you could use a steadfast rule. The only thing i can think of is to direct you with note choice, going up a certain interval you have to go down a certain interval etc.

Sorry for rambling, and last thing, whats going on here: "So, A B C# E F# on one string maybe and
C D Eflat G A on another."

[A C# E] dont map to [C Eb G] as far as i can see. And according to the previous C -> F minor logic shouldn't the inverse of A be D minor...?

Thanks
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok just thought of something else and it came from looking at the circle of fifths.

Now i'm likely not grasping the whole thing here, but i'm pretty sure this is correct.

F minor goes with C major because in the circle of fifths, F minor is right below C minor (i know this isnt the reason why it works but i but thats how im going to look at it for now).

By this logic i would be correct in assuming that C minor is the the inverse minor of G major.

D major -> G minor
A major -> D minor etc... ...

Its just I and iv OR i and V... nice

So lets make this broad statement: you can use the matrix to find notes that are inverse of each other and the circle of 5ths to find tonalities that are inverse of each other.
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok last thought, then ill stop responding to myself i swear...

The different keys that this idea yields such as playing in the key of Ab (F minor) over C are just an augmented 5th away. I was thinking about the way Giant Steps and Countdown work, and Kimock's principle applies.

Say were in key of C, by Coltrane's logic you can modulate to keys E and G# (augmented triad and each note is 5 frets apart)

Kimock's thing is the same, in Key of C use F minor (aka Ab/G# major).

Don't know what it means, just thought it was cool...
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57tele



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 714
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On3ironaut5 wrote:
Ok last thought, then ill stop responding to myself i swear...

The different keys that this idea yields such as playing in the key of Ab (F minor) over C are just an augmented 5th away. I was thinking about the way Giant Steps and Countdown work, and Kimock's principle applies.

Say were in key of C, by Coltrane's logic you can modulate to keys E and G# (augmented triad and each note is 5 frets apart)

Kimock's thing is the same, in Key of C use F minor (aka Ab/G# major).

Don't know what it means, just thought it was cool...


No coincidence-- Coltrane was tuned in to all the Mathieu stuff.
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Lee



Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 120
Location: Central Massachusetts

PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might be far off of the original thread. I went to Amazon to look up Mathieu's book. I noticed the following blurb,

Quote:
John Coltrane in Downbeat Magazine :
"Mathieu is consistently proving himself to be one of the best in musical theory."

http://www.amazon.ca/Harmonic-Experience-Harmony-Natural-Expression/dp/0892815604/ref=sr_1_1/701-7844169-2635566?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181916411&sr=1-1

So, I Google "Coltrane Downbeat Magazine" and find interviews with Coltrane about theory. I guess the magazine put some of these 1960 era articles online. The one with Eric Dolphy is really interesting. Dolphy talks about playing with the birds and "his use of quarter tones when playing flute."
http://www.downbeat.com/default.asp?sect=stories&subsect=story_detail&sid=212
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lalaland



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget, the whole point is not just to play F- over C, but to contrast the major 'in' tones, with the F- 'out' tones. It makes the resolution to the root stronger. I'm working on analysing Giant Steps in this form right now, I'll post it next week sometime. Very Happy
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