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Coltrane, Kimock, and Sacred Geometry:The Polarity of Thirds
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alans



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 44
Location: Rollinsville, Colorado

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the lattice diagram Jamie. It should help me get a handle on the terminology a bit better.

I just want to point out that I edited my post about thirds, I don't want to mislead anyone. The better information is there now.

alan
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alans:
"you use them when you can". This also applies to how you can fit them in with what other people are doing, who may be restricted to the tempered scale.

Been working on it since that issue of guitar player came out. Bill Frisell does a thing sometimes where he bends the neck on chords to produce some "microtonal?" sounds... any idea? Sounds cool even though the rest of the band isn't accommodating.


"Well, lets pick something to do it on then! "

Musical example (talking only note choice): Dominant color
Things i typically base lines off of in a jam band/modal/jazz setting:
Mixolydian
Lydian Dominant
Whole tone
augmented
diminished
5th mode melodic minor
5th mode harmonic minor
combinations of the above
chromaticism
Dodecaphonics: dominant colors moved 3rds away... Over G7: G mixolydian (home), G phrygian (Bb7), Ab Dorian (Db7 = tritone), Gb aeolian (E7)... Can be played cyclically, individually, mixed and matched... in changes, any function. Chords a 3rd apart are related. Basis for giant steps. G-Bb-Db-E = diminished
You hear Jimmy Herring do it all the time... http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/jimmy-herring/Aug-06/22328
Pat Martino's nature of guitar offers another way of looking at it.

All this comes down to: all 12 notes are fair game with conviction and justification
Is the lattice/reciprocal way of looking at it a different way to come to the same result?


When i said disregard my previous knowledge i was referring to the above (chord scale/arp approach)... do you contrive lines based solely on the lattice (or something else i don't know about) with out any reference to "typical" jazz ideas. Do the two ways of learning produce different results... what am i not getting?


"Nah, the opposite is Ab, not Gb."
When you say Ab is reciprocal of C... i think: G# is a major third in the C aug triad... all thirds are related, just a different color. Gb is 2 minor thirds away, Ab is 1 major third away. Gb major is the least like C major isn't that the most reciprocal?

Of course I'm talking standard 12 tone lingo where there are 2 different thirds. From what i understand though, in just intonation there are 2 thirds, they are just much closer together. Steve spoke on this in "conversations in sound" ill have to take another listen.

Relating scale(s) to chords is wiggling my fingers at a grid? Other than playing in tune.. what does this approach/way of looking at music offer?

How do you guys approach a jam (lets say G7) in a non-modal/scalular way?
Note choice first...than intonation.
Not talking big dumb ideas or any organization of the notes... just how do you conceive of the notes themselves.

"the only issue that has any physical application to the instrument is pushing the strings flat to get to the just intervals"
I'm doing this, what other issues are there in regards to note choice?

"E major equates to A Lydian, which is the most overtonal of our modes - all overtonal infact, except for the sixth."
I dig this, C-E-G-B-D-F#... About the 6th though, the A... It isnt overtonal because its coming down from the F#? Or does it start going up from the F?

Harmonic experience is coming next paycheck...
I guess the main point is: I don't know how just intonation relates to actual note choice (unless you want to say note choice doesn't matter if you are playing out of tune notes).
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On3ironaut5



Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So i looked at the matrix last night...

Take a Cma7 chord: C - E - G - B
its reciprocal is: C - Ab - F - C#
Go from C up to E (which is the 5th partial) so you have to go from C down to Ab (C is the 3rd partial from F).
C right to G so C left to F. C down to B so C up to C#.

"As above, so below"

So C major according to you guys is C - Db - E - F - G - Ab - ?
Is this what you resolve with over a Cmaj7 chord?
I see where your getting it but...
Why not just call it the 5th mode of harmonic minor sans the 7...
I dig the concept...just don't see the application, please clue me in.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, I see a lot of questions here.

So, let's get back to that "practical application" thingy. Was the suggestion of "Milestones" about using that tune to apply these Concepts? Or, was it where they were already clearly spelled out?

I'm game. But, I just don't know what to do next...........


Confused

Where do we start this up again? C'mon, I know there's some of you guys still out there. Some more "Out There" than others. Razz But seriously, let's get going!

Your move.
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kingsleyd



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 27
Location: live free & die state

PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On3ironaut5 wrote:
Bill Frisell does a thing sometimes where he bends the neck on chords to produce some "microtonal?" sounds... any idea? Sounds cool even though the rest of the band isn't accommodating.


That's not so much a microtonal thing as an intonation thing -- trying to compensate (or, sometimes, distract from) the inherent out-of-tuneness of certain intervals in chords. SG type Gibsons are especially good for this because (a) they're so out of tune all the time, and (b) hankin' on the neck produces huge pitch shifts. I'll never forget the first time I saw Bill play sans effects and realized "holy crap! he does that all with his hands!!!!"

And it depends on who "the rest of his band" is. In the trio with Viktor Krauss, Viktor totally gets it. And I saw him with Eyvind Kang (viola) a couple of weeks ago. Eyvind totally gets it.

OK, back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

My grandfather was an organist, carilloneur, organ builder of some repute, writer of the 1982 updated Episcopal hymnal, choirmaster, and ordained minister. He knew about all this stuff. Damn do I wish I could turn the clock back 30 or 40 years.
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