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Blues Theory
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S.

As far as writing things out, like on a Forum, I had an idea. Maybe a couple of simple Symbols, for some of the general Concepts. Like maybe, when talking about Overtones.

First Partial = 1@

Third Partial = 3@

Or maybe 1^ and 3^

Does anything like that already exist? Is there a "Shorthand" that I need to become acquainted with? Or does this cloud things up, at this point?
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kimock



Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swain wrote:


Does anything like that already exist? Is there a "Shorthand" that I need to become acquainted with? Or does this cloud things up, at this point?


Just more stuff to learn and forget again if you ask me. I'm ok with just spelling it out for now.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kimock wrote:

Just more stuff to learn and forget again if you ask me.


I did. Razz

Thanks. I'm definately not looking to clutter up the whole process! LOL
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, is anybody else around here, also working on this stuff? Question

Or, am I the only one?

Please feel free to add your "2 Cents".

And any questions you may ask, would probably just help. So, discoveries? Questions?
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Frankenstrat



Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to not have chimed in before now. The reason is that whenever I check this board, I am at work. It's best, for me anyway, to have a guitar in my hands for things like this. I don't want to misinform someone, because something got a little twisted around in my brain while I'm juggling client calls, and doing work stuff. Aside from that, I am trying to sort of unlearn a lot of this, and use my ears a great deal more.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankenstrat,

So, are you trying to "un-learn" it all, because you want to "forget all the rules, and just play"? Or, are you trying to un-learn it because you feel it doesn't work? Or, that it's derailed you in some way?

As I am a Newbie to this, I would be interested in your thoughts on these Concepts and their practical application(s).

I will say, that yes, trying to incorporate these thoughts and Concepts into my own playing can be clumsy. I find myself losing my "in the Zone" moments, and getting a little de-railed. But, that happens with any new Concept or Technique. At least, it does for me. LOL
It always takes me a long time to get something "under my fingers", and to make it a fully functioning part of my playing. But, once I get it, I usually really get it. So, I feel this is just some of the natural progression, of my learning processes.

Back to you though. I would be interested in how long you worked/are working with these Concepts. The whole process, from first learning about them, to incorporating them, to wherever you are right now.
I know this is a big question. And you may not want to share that much of yourself on an Internet Forum. But, I'll ask. So, if there is anything more you'd care to share, I'm all ears. Smile
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Frankenstrat



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, that was a sort of theory generalization. I actually do need to know this particular thread concept a bit better. I just kept seeing you replying to yourself, looking for some confirmation, or some input from other forumites. So, I figured I'd chime in, and at least offer an explanation, of why there was no explanation. I sometimes print these out, and try them when I get home. As far as unlearning things goes...I tend to be a bit of a scale pattern burner. Which is a leftover from my younger development as a player, and what excited me then about guitar in general. Guess you could call me a whanker! At least in days of old. But, I am making more of an effort to smell the roses these days, and not cram so much into each measure. Granted, my style has changed a lot in the past ten years, but I still have the urge to burn. But, I try to only do it when I practice at home, or when the music leads you there. If everybody else is firing on all cylinders in full tilt mode, sure. Because it works in that context.
As far as just intonation, and having different thirds cohabitating goes, for me anyway, is I stopped trying to find definitions and rationalizations as to why it works, and when is the most appropriate useage of that concept from a theoretical standpoint. Why? Because, now I'm working more on using my ears. For me, all of the muscle memory repetition that went into being able to burn scales was sort of useful. But, when you get into a lot of musical situations where things aren't so cut & dry, like this flipping 3rds blues thing, those rules no longer apply. So, you find yourself playing the same thing, over & over whenever you approach a similar musical situation. At least, from a note selection point of view. If I develop my ears more, my goal will be sort of like a Pat Metheny thing. In an interview of his I read some years ago, he said a lot of people ask him what scales he uses. His reply was something like, "Why, all of them, of course." Now, I am nowhere near ambitious enough to get my playing up to his, or Steve's level of understanding, and clarity. But, I feel that it will serve me better, if I can sort of visualize the SOUNDS of what all is going on in an ensemble context. Then, make more split second decisions as to appropriate ways to go, and also being cognisant of how far, "Out," you WANT to get. Rather than muscle memory happenstance, or getting lucky, or not so lucky, and letting loose a horrendous cacophony of overly self indulgent caterwauling. So, I am trying to do more of a play the notes that you hum in your head, sort of thing, in the hopes that I'll be able to develop a lot of hybrid, and weird scales that do fit into the rules of theory, for the most part. Yet, I am not completely bound by them. It's sort of like when you find out a player that you have always thought of as shear genius, and surely must possess extremely advanced theoretical knowledge...come to find out, he knows no theory at all. Yet, plays all of these very interesting things, that a great many other players don't. Like Jimi, would be a great example. More polyphonic concepts, and being able to just get the stuff from your brain to come out of the speakers. I'll let you know when I get there. This may take a while, LOL!!!
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for such a thoughtful reply!

Yeah, I totally understand where you're coming from. I too use the "unconscious" method of playing. LOL

What I mean, is that I also try to "just play" to whatever musical situation I am in, at the moment. And yes, very much it's all about Melody for me.
In fact, when I'm at a Jam Session (like a local bar, where there is a very cool, "high-caliber" level of players, who frequent this Jam.), I will just "Let Go" and see what happens. Many times, it's really kinda flat and not so inspiring. But, when it's "On", it's awesome!
The regulars at this Jam are very supportive. I play basically Rhythm, and Groove along, trying to support them whenever I'm up there. And near the end of the night, when everyone else has done their thing, they throw me a Bone, and I get to freak out a little.
Of course, the first couple of times, I played very restrained. Probably because I wasn't comfortable enought to go for it, yet. (Still have to work up to a good comfort level, every time). And when I did, it wasn't that great. Little flashes of things. And more "workman-like" filler, etc. But, once I did hit my stride, it went over really well. WHEW! That was nice, to get such support for my efforts.
So, they wait til the end of the night, and they see what happens. Just like I do! LOL

The Theory Concepts and Techniques I work on, are something that I do. And, it usually takes a very long time, before it actually shows up in my playing. I feel like I "know" a whole lot more than I can play, at this point. But, I plug away. And some day, maybe it'll just "be there".

So, "Onward And Upward"! Laughing

P.S.
Don't be a stranger. If you read something "Hair-Brained" from me, just slap me down! I can always use the help.
Yeah, I do ask for confirmation here a lot. As I feel there are probably more players here than Steve, who could save me from going down the wrong road. So, I figure that it never hurts to ask.
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Frankenstrat



Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No trouble t'all. I guess the short answer for a lot of this, is just plain old laziness. But, I am rearranging my schedule to incorporate a lot more practice time in the near future. Then, I'll dive a bit deeper into my own brain. I know it's not really safe in there, but it's the only one I've got!
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Swain



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"letting loose a horrendous cacophony of overly self indulgent caterwauling."

THAT could be my new "Sig"!

Hey look, over 1,200 Views. Somebody seems interested in this stuff!

One thing I've been doing, is just playing that simple 3rd. on the High E String, along with the open Low E String. Playing the 3rd, Fret, and bending it up to the "Just 3rd." (I think that's a proper term).

When you get there, it really does just "Blend" into the E "Tonic" on the open Low E String. Kind of like Tuning 2 Notes relatively. You can hear the "Beats" slow down, until you hit the sweet spot. So, I'm just working that a lot. Trying to internalize the sound(s).

I'll do more, soon. But, my main focus is on this one Interval. Next, I plan on trying the same Technique and Interval, all over the guitar. Also, I am examining my own playing, to see just how often I have been using this Interval, without being so aware of it. I also want to start using a bunch of Double-Stops that incorporate this Interval. Just kind of pre-planned, and mechanically. Until it "feels" natural.

But, I've still got a lot of work to do first........... Exclamation

So, that's where I'm at right now.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I came up with a couple of Exercises, to help me put this stuff into practice.

Here's one, that can be moved up and down the Fretboard, and is fairly easily accessed.

e-X
B-X
G-5
D-X
A-X
E-5

You don't play the Strings with an X on them. Just the Low E String, and the G String. Play them at the same Fret (5th. Fret in the above example, but can be moved to any position). Thinking of the E String as your Root, the G String will yield the b3rd. So, a slight bend on the G String will allow you to access the "3rds." between the EDO m3rd. and M3rd.

So, if anybody tries this, please let me know what you think of it.

Does it work?

Is it easy or hard?

Etc.

Question
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, my "Exercise" seems to be working. It's getting easier for me to hit the pitches. I've evn been using them in Improvisations a little. I think these may be a little different than the pitches I've used for years, though. So, it's not totally "natural" yet. They have been getting a little more seamless. Very Happy

I have also expanded my Exercise to incorporate the A and B Strings, and then the D and High E Strings. However, these additions are new. So, I haven't managed to use them much. Yet.


Has anybody else tried this yet? Or, is it too elementary for you guys? Anyway, it seems to be helping me.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, I am seeing/hearing some benefits from all of this Study.

My Ear seems to be getting better. Listening so intently to the Pitches, seems to make me focus better.

I have been writing some new Lines and Melodies, with more options.

Both very exciting!

Now, as far as the "Naturally Occurring Overtones" as the basis for many of these Pitches, yes I think it's obvious. Especially after reading about the different accounts of "Music History", and the Concept of Equal Temperments. No mater which account I read, the Temperments seem to all have the Overtone Series figured into the mix. Either as something to Approximate, or as some other type of Reference Point.

Is this also where Folk Musics get there Basis? These "Natural" Pitches? I am inclined to believe so.

One thing that I need to investigate, is the story of the Neanderthal Flute. Did it actually play a "Major Scale", or a "Natural Minor" Scale? Just how close were these Pitches to Modern choices? How close to the Overtonal Series? Real questions, there.

So, do I feel that the "Sub-Minor 3rd." is a Blues-Approved Pitch? This one is a definate Yes, for me. That Pitch sounds like a soulful, moaning tone. So, I'm going to work from the premise that this Pitch is in the "definately/Maybe" camp. Wink I'll keep listening and looking for more "Proof" of this Pitch in my old Blues Records. But, as of now, I'm leaning towards a yes.

More to come..........
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Kimock,

Since the EDO stuff is an "Averaging" (for lack of a better term) of the Just Pitches, I had a thought. So, I'll ask if this is anywhere near correct:

The Dorian Scale has a 6th., and a b7th.
Also, a 2nd. and a b3rd.

So, would the prevelance of it's mention in "Jazz Methods" possibly be because of a similar "Averaging" or "Approximation"?

Trying to hit that Sub Minor 3rd. with the 2nd. and b3rd. encircling it?

Trying to hit the Septimal 7th., by encircling it with the 6th. and b7th.?

So, a classic Pentatonic Scale, with the EDO Pitches that are closest to these "Other" (Overtonal) Notes?

Just thought I'd ask.
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lalaland



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

Last edited by lalaland on Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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