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Blues Theory
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will. Thanks for the idea.

Is this just so I can help internalize the sounds? Or, is there more I'm to be looking for?

Also, would these Church Modes be a select few? I'm still not clear enough on them to know whether they fit your description of "without the 7th. Partial stuff".

Again, thanks.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it beacuse the Church Modes weren't derived from 7th. Partial thinking?
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I should add, that my background is maybe why I have to ask so many questions.

I come from a more "Folk" background. Folk, Blues, Jazz, Country, Rock, etc. were what I grew up around. But, I didn't go to a music school.
I am basically self-taught. And I learn the hard way, I suppose. You can tell/show/explain things to me a million times. But, until I get my own hands on it, and screw it up repeatedly all by myself, I just won't really get it. Confused But, once I do go through all of these screw ups, I will be pretty solid.
Don't know if this info is helpful or not. But if so, then here it is.
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kimock



Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swain wrote:
Mr. Kimock,

Since the EDO stuff is an "Averaging" (for lack of a better term)

The better term is "tempered".
Tempering is deliberately mistuning a Just interval a little wide or narrow to some tolerable degree; it's gonna beat. We do this to expand the number of available triads while still using as few pitches as possible.

Quote:
So, I'll ask if this is anywhere near correct:

The Dorian Scale has a 6th., and a b7th.
Also, a 2nd. and a b3rd.

So, would the prevelance of it's mention in "Jazz Methods" possibly be because of a similar "Averaging" or "Approximation"?


I would say no. There's a lot of time and territory in between the tuning concepts and modern jazz method stuff like chord scale relationships.
I don't see much if any acknowledgment of the underlying 12 tone tuning stuff in jazz method books. It's pretty much universally "First the octave is divided into twelve parts" if that, and then off to the races.[/quote]

Quote:
Trying to hit that Sub Minor 3rd. with the 2nd. and b3rd. encircling it?

Trying to hit the Septimal 7th., by encircling it with the 6th. and b7th.?


Nah, those scale steps are more likely the result of the division of the octave into two parts, 5th and 4th, and subsequent division of those intervals.
Any approximation with intervals not specific to whatever scale steps in whatever temperament you're using would be learned and contextual, and achieved by association with other specific pitches.
You're talking (I think) about the concurrent development or evolution of the temperament and how musicians exploit those resources, and how the results effect further refinement of the temperament.

Those are really two different subjects. They're related obviously, but you can't turn it around to the point where you're guessing that the people who laid the foundation had a clue what was going to get built on top of it in the future. Or that the people building on top of it have any awareness of what's holding the thing up.
That's kinda where we are today, no real awareness of how the foundation supports our efforts to build on it.

Quote:
So, a classic Pentatonic Scale, with the EDO Pitches that are closest to these "Other" (Overtonal) Notes?

Just thought I'd ask.


You can look at it any way you want, eventually it turns out to be very, very simple. It just takes a while to sift through all the centuries of piled up bullshit naming conventions. This planet has one, and only one functional musical system. 12 tone. It's been there the whole time. The sun and the moon.

Stick with it. Peace.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dang!

Back to the drawing board...............



Okay, one (more) thing I don't feel clear on;

When you say "12 Tone", I'm not really clear on what you're referring to.

I know this is an elementary question. And if it's too involved to discuss here, could you point me to a resource that will explain it?

And I am finally getting my copy of Harmonic Experience. Maybe it'll arrive this week. Cool
So, if that is the resource you're going to point me towards, I'm on it!

But, I would appreciate any info you want to share.


Thanks again for staying engaged. It is much appreciated. And if you play anywhere near Little Rock, I will come out to the show. That way, I can thank you in person.
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kimock



Joined: 20 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swain wrote:

When you say "12 Tone", I'm not really clear on what you're referring to.



For whatever reason, with few very exceptions, it looks like every historical attempt at a functioning musical system wound up with 12 tones total and 7 note scales. I think it's got more to do with the calender than music specifically, but the 12 tone thing whatever the temperament is ubiquitous.

peace
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whew! Okay, it's a little more broad of a term. I thought I was totally missing this. But, I did know that many times 12 Tones had been derived. And that many cultures have used both 5 and 7 Note Scales.
So, at least I was on the right track. Thank you for the info.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue May 26, 2009 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
you can't turn it around to the point where you're guessing that the people who laid the foundation had a clue what was going to get built on top of it in the future. Or that the people building on top of it have any awareness of what's holding the thing up.
That's kinda where we are today, no real awareness of how the foundation supports our efforts to build on it.



Yeah, I understand this.

I was just wondering if these things might be one of those times where things happened indepentantly, but ended up in the same place. Not sure of the term for this.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, 180 new views in 1 day. Cool that there's some interest!

Smile

So, no new posts?

Confused

"Discussion Board" seems like a misnomer, in this situation.

So, we're at 3180 Views to this Thread. And how many participants?

C'mon! GeT iNtO tHe GrOoVe!

Twisted Evil
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3314?








Twisted Evil
RazzSLACKERS!!!
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I'm feeling much better with finding and using (finally!) some of these "other pitches" in a more organized fashion. So, that is cool.

Cool

I also just got a copy of Harmonic Experience, and have been singing along with an Open A String Drone.
Next.....Octaves!

Anyway, hopefully this will help me to understand some things more clearly. I feel fine with just knowing that there are better explanations to use of these other pitches. And I could live with just this for now. However, I am going to dig into this book (H.E.) and see where/if it leads me somewhere.
It's funny to hear from others musicians who keep asking me "why are you studying that?". Or, "what's the purpose?". I tell them, it's "an intellectual exercise, and plain old curiosity". Trying to explain that it is to become a more complete musician, and that the "missing pieces" have always been a curiosity to me, seems to just leave people blank.
They don't see the practical uses. And maybe some here don't, either. But I do. And I know that if this "stuff" rings true, I'll be a much more able musician and instructor.

I just have never gotten on with the many different permutations you have to endure, to explain some of the "Standard Theoretical Models".

Plus, I want to own those 33 Pitches per Octave!

Plus, Chicks dig it*! Smile





* Okay, that may not be entirely true.
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Swain



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3487
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57tele



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Posts: 714
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swain wrote:
3487


Speaking only for myself, I think I have a decent fundamental understanding of the 'big picture' surrounding these issues, but just frankly don't have the time or energy right now to devote to digging in in any detail. So, I really don't have anything to contribute, at least not till I retire from my day job.

The numbers you keep referring to, however, I am guessing are a fair bit deceptive. Having worked a fair bit over the years with server logs, I can tell you that unless this site is configured differently from the sites I've worked with, 80-90% of the 'views' you are seeing recorded are bots crawling for info. On my old band website, which I almost never update, but keep up mostly as a server for music files, I have over 1400 hits since June 1, and all but about 50 of them are bots.
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Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay! I never knew that. It just seemed like there were so many views, and no replies. I know this isn't the busiest place on the net. But seeing all those views was kinda confusing. I figured some one would chime in just to tell me to shut up! Twisted Evil

So, fair enough. Not everybody is engaged in these pursuits. I'll drop thae running totals. Wink

And, I will try to post here some. I don't post this stuff on TGP much, as it's a huge forum with a lot of people who can't resist joining the discussion from the Devil's Advocate side of things. Or, simply to shoot these topics down as useless or misinformed. I like some aspects of the larger (TGP) forum. But, I am not far enough along with this stuff to bat down every challenge to it. So, I thought this would be a place more open to these discussions. Don't get me wrong, I do want to know if I'm going down the wrong path. But, I need to hear it from people who are or have done the actual work.
So, I will keep looking for a place where there may be people who are interested in engaging these subjects.


Thanks for the head's up, 57tele. I thought rattling the cage would get some responses. Twisted Evil
But, I guess there are only 4 or 5 of us reading this forum's posts. So, not a lot of people to share input.
And thanks to all of you who have posted some replies. I do appreciate your help and input! Most all of them were/are very useful and helpful. Some I'm still working through. And some I haven't really had the chance to explore properly. Yet.

The only other thing I will ask of those reading this (right now, anyway! Razz ), is that, if you have some Lines written out, or a cool phrase or two to share, that you do so. If there's something along the lines of what I'm posting about.
Or, if you have practice or technical methods to share. Things that helped you to get "this stuff" under your fingers, etc.

Thanks in advance.
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lalaland



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I PM'd you bro.
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