Steve Kimock Discussion :: View topic - Harmonic Experience
Steve Kimock Discussion Forum Index

Steve Kimock Discussion
The Official Steve Kimock Discussion Group

www.Kimock.com

Buy Steve Kimock's New CD


 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Chat Users Currently Chatting

 
Harmonic Experience
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Steve Kimock Discussion Forum Index -> Performance and Improvisation
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:18 am    Post subject: Harmonic Experience Reply with quote

So, I finally got a copy of this book about 2 weeks ago. Very interesting stuff. I'm going to work through it page by page.
I'm at the beginning of the 5th. Chapter now. I've been singing all the Exercises, and trying to do everything in a thorough and methodical way.

So far, the singing and time keeping aspects are very entertaining. And I feel that my critical listening is much more focused right now. So, that's a cool thing!

Anybody else around here work through this book? I'd be interested in your thoughts on the book, the exercises, and the results of these studies on your playing.
_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing that has always interested me, and that drew me to what I had read from Steve Kimock, is the interactional aspects of Music and Music Making.

SK has often mentioned in Posts, his thoughts on the Interaction of the Audience/Listeners with the Music.

Also, I have always been fascinated with Melody. But, also with Context. And Music has a shifting landscape of Context, along with the movements of the Melodies. So, these 2 aspects are exciting. But, the third aspect I'm talking about here is observed within the Interaction of the Melody and the Context.

Then, there's the numerous other aspects of Perception, Attitudes, etc. And things get pretty involved, rather quickly! LOL

Looking at and experiencing the Interactions of 2 different Rhythms, as in Chapter 3, FIGURE 3.1 Mathieu talks of another Interaction. And this seems to dovetail nicely with what I've always perceived and explored.


I thought it was interesting to read Mr. Mathieu ask (Harmonic Experience, Page 25) "Why is scalar space additive, and harmonic space multiplicative?"

I wonder if it's because of this 3rd. Interaction? With the addition of Harmony to Melody, you get an Interaction of these 2. The Interaction itself, would seem to be the "Multiplicative Aspect".

What say you?

Question
_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2009 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anybody here work with/has worked with the book "Harmonic Experience"?

Do you have anything you'd like to comment on, about this book?

I am just digging into it. But, I would love to hear from others who have had some first-hand experience with it.
_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I've reached Chapter 6, and have started listening to "The Swan". This'll take me some time, as I'm trying to give everything it's due diligence here. I want to get the sounds and resonances under my fingers and into my ears, before I move on.
_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something I'm coming to realize:

Whenever I hear a 2nd. now, I also hear the 9th.
Almost like it's piggy-backing on the 2nd.

I think this is a direct result of actually hearing the 5th. of a 5th. that yields a D in C.

Not sure if it's my perception or just my perspective, at this point. But, it actually seems to be my perception of the (for lack of a better term) depth of the Note, in the context of being the 2nd. Note in an Alpahbetical arrangement.


_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kingsleyd



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 27
Location: live free & die state

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swain wrote:
Something I'm coming to realize:

Whenever I hear a 2nd. now, I also hear the 9th.
Almost like it's piggy-backing on the 2nd.

I think this is a direct result of actually hearing the 5th. of a 5th. that yields a D in C.

Not sure if it's my perception or just my perspective, at this point. But, it actually seems to be my perception of the (for lack of a better term) depth of the Note, in the context of being the 2nd. Note in an Alpahbetical arrangement.



No that makes perfect sense. You're hearing the whole second now.

A loooong time ago I was really into this Dvorak piano sonata. In the opening to one of the movements the low strings do this thing where they move around in a 5th-on-a-5th arrangement. I thought that sound was positively addictive, so much so that I started tuning the bottom three strings of my acoustic C - G - D. (on my CD many of the tunes are in some variant of that tuning) As a result, I feel like I've always heard 2nds that way.

Turns out Michael Hedges had exactly the same experience with exactly the same piece of music. Hmmm, no wonder people thought we sounded alike!

It's a fave move of Andy Summers as well. (cue "Message in a Bottle" lick)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's cool. So, you already hear the same type of thing?

Have you read any of Harmonic Experience? Or better still, have you done some of the exercises? I'm asking, because it sounds like this book may be right up your alley.
_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kingsleyd



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 27
Location: live free & die state

PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Swain wrote:
That's cool. So, you already hear the same type of thing?


Yep. I've also always "heard" and paid attention to the overtones when you play a particular note on a guitar, and how the amp emphasizes (or kills) 'em. The texture of sound, ya know?

Quote:
Have you read any of Harmonic Experience? Or better still, have you done some of the exercises? I'm asking, because it sounds like this book may be right up your alley.


Yes x3. I'm a math teacher by trade, and the mathematical dimensions of music have always fascinated me.

Tangential observation: I'm still trying to reconcile how the 5 : 4 "natural third" feels to me vs. how beating 5 vs. 4 feels. The natural third has a really "green" or "grassy" quality to me (for lack of a better description) whereas the 5 : 4 beat feels very martial/metallic. I wish I could make 5 : 4 "swing" but no luck so far in years of trying.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kimock



Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 441
Location: Lehigh Valley

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kingsleyd wrote:
Swain wrote:
That's cool. So, you already hear the same type of thing?


Yep. I've also always "heard" and paid attention to the overtones when you play a particular note on a guitar, and how the amp emphasizes (or kills) 'em. The texture of sound, ya know?

Quote:
Have you read any of Harmonic Experience? Or better still, have you done some of the exercises? I'm asking, because it sounds like this book may be right up your alley.


Yes x3. I'm a math teacher by trade, and the mathematical dimensions of music have always fascinated me.

Tangential observation: I'm still trying to reconcile how the 5 : 4 "natural third" feels to me vs. how beating 5 vs. 4 feels. The natural third has a really "green" or "grassy" quality to me (for lack of a better description) whereas the 5 : 4 beat feels very martial/metallic. I wish I could make 5 : 4 "swing" but no luck so far in years of trying.


Hi Kingsleyd, you mean the '5 in one hand 4 in the other' thing, not just groove in 5, right?
There may be little to gain in the attempt to equate beats per minute to cycles per second. 'In tune' is a groove at the beats per minute level, and when cycles per second are 'in a groove', that's in tune. . .
I'm ok with that. The sub-divisional 5 in one hand 4 in the other, if it's directly analogous to anything, would be the same as isolating the 4th and 5th partial of a single vibrating string.

Doesn't really work like that.
Swing any groove in 5, that's what it is. It is what it is.
Is it functionally pentamerous in the same manner as its pitch ratio equivalent?
No, of course not. There's no reason not to play and listen and think of those things together, but still they're different worlds so far for me at least.

peace
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kingsleyd



Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 27
Location: live free & die state

PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kimock wrote:

Hi Kingsleyd, you mean the '5 in one hand 4 in the other' thing, not just groove in 5, right?


Yes, exactly. It's more because "3 vs. 2" seems to so easily swing or groove, I think. But that may be because the 3 vs. 2 thing is so inherent in so much of the music we (or I) listen to. Even more so since someone showed me a sort of "parent groove" that he learned via a pianist who was with Dizzy Gillespie for a long time.

I can definitely find a "groove" in 5 any number of ways.

Quote:
There may be little to gain in the attempt to equate beats per minute to cycles per second. 'In tune' is a groove at the beats per minute level, and when cycles per second are 'in a groove', that's in tune. . .


That's how it seems to me.

Quote:
I'm ok with that. The sub-divisional 5 in one hand 4 in the other, if it's directly analogous to anything, would be the same as isolating the 4th and 5th partial of a single vibrating string.


That makes sense.

Quote:

Swing any groove in 5, that's what it is. It is what it is.
Is it functionally pentamerous in the same manner as its pitch ratio equivalent?
No, of course not. There's no reason not to play and listen and think of those things together, but still they're different worlds so far for me at least.


Sure. Many, if not most, grooves in 5 tend to be somehow subdivided into some combination of 2s and 3s anyway, whether within a single measure or a couple (or more).

PS, the hat is working out great... Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, similar to how Mathieu talks of the difficulty many musicians have, of internalizing the M3rd. whether Overtonal or Reciprocal?

Do you think this militaristic effect your speaking of, is the result of the "Multiplicative" qualities, similar to that found in Harmonic Space?
_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I have a beginning of a Lattice built up:

E B F#
/ / /
C G D

Okay, a Spine of 5ths. Then, a Spine of M3rds. built above that.

Then, we have the Reciprocal of C (F).

F C

Now, F is generating C?

If so, does that mean you can keep "Backcycling" through Reciprocal 5ths., indefinately?

Because if that is true, you'd never actually have A Generating Tone, would you? Because every time you have a new Generating Tone (Like F generating C), it becomes the result of the "Earlier" Generating Tone.

i.e.

Eb Bb F C etc.?

Stopping here, Eb would be THE Generating Tone? Or, is Ab implied as the Generating Tone for the Eb?



Here is my "Beginner" Lattice, as I understand it so far:

E B F# C#
/ / / /
Eb Bb F C G D A
/ / / /
B Gb Db Ab



Does this look correct, so far?
_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, that didn't line up at all!

Let's see if we can get that fixed;



Code:
                E B F# C#
                              /  / /  /
                Eb Bb F C G D A
                 /  /   /  /
               B Gb Db Ab

_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the top Spine (E B F# C#) were to be above and to the right of the middle Spine, starting with the C Note.
_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Swain



Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 211
Location: Arkansas

PostPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.........................E B F# C#
......................../ ../.. /.. /
..........Eb Bb F C G D A
......../ .. /.. /.. /
.......B Gb Db Ab


Maybe the little Dots will align it all, this time?
_________________
"Real Tomato Ketchup, Roy?"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Steve Kimock Discussion Forum Index -> Performance and Improvisation All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Powered by phpBB 2001, 2002 phpBB Group